Realistic Damage Model - Bombers are Difficult to Shoot Down

[Feldgrün]

I was reading in "Samurai!" by IJN ace Saburo Sakai:

 "Hardly had our planes been refueled and our ammunition replaced than a spotter report came in. Ten B-26s were on their way to the base. They could not have chosen a worse time, for nineteen fighters were on the ground before the Marauders reached Lae. We failed to shoot any down, but damaged most of the planes, and caused them to scatter their bombs wildly."

If I was facing 10 B-26s in any recent flight sim, I would have destroyed 3-5 with my 20mm armed plane until I ran out of ammunition. Here, Sakai was flying the twin 20mm & twin 7.7mm armed A6M and was one of Japan's highest scoring fighter pilots with 39 kills/victories. The fact that neither he nor any of the A6Ms with him could bring down a B-26 says the DMs we've been using with in any modern flight sim are woefully misrepresented. I understand that quick kills make for happier flight sim flyers, but it's just not realistic. Not even close.

[ZachariasX]

I think the hunting is far, far easier in the game, where there are no noise, vibrations, gun triggers not places in odd places and you knewthat facing defensive cal .50 guns without meaningful amament whatsoever could be a reason to be somewhat conservative in how to apporach targets. In that case, defensive guns even effectively outrange the Zeros armament.

So, i guess anyone going in for three kills would, in the real world, be dead at least by the second or third attack run. If it comes to high angle off attacks (as the pros use to zap the peshkas in IL2), this is probably a maneuver that even Sakai wasn't profficient in doing, never mind the rest of his crew. Good simmers have just so much experience and no constraints like weakned by disease and malnutrition in a physically excecptially demanding environment.

[Lusekofte]

I can only support this. Reason for me favouring Clod is several, but you can fly in any sides bombers get attacked by one or four fighters and you might survive getting a kill as a bonus. But you might bail out with just one attacker. 
You get a reasonable chance of survival. A chance to return. The only way to accomplish this is a pretty complex damage model. Defensive fire from bombers should be lethal if attacker park on their six, but they should not be effective during evasive manoeuvres. Nor spot/ trac them if out of sight. It should be an accomplishment taking down a bomber unhurt. 

[SharpeXB]

I think no matter how realistic the damage model or ballistics etc. bombers will still be on the losing end of this equation in PC sims. Gamer pilots will always take more risks to attack a target and they’re better marksmen than most any real pilot ever was simply because they have so many hours in the game. They have much more “skill” because many real pilots never got the chance to accumulate such hours. Then there’s the fact that games can’t put the number of bombers in the air that were present in real battles where there was safety in those numbers. In multiplayer many bomber pilots try to fly lone wolf and are somehow surprised when this ends up being suicidal. This would of course have been suicide in the real war as well. Sure bombers are large and can absorb a certain degree more damage and they’re multi engine. But there’s nothing intrinsically resilient about them, few well placed bullets will still bring them down like any other plane. 

[Lusekofte]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

bombers will still be on the losing end of this equation in PC sims

Of course they will be in the loosing end. But in GB you are flying zippo’s 

once spotted you can just bail out. If this is the case in new sim. I simply won’t bother

[wheelsup_cavu]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

They have much more “skill” because many real pilots never got the chance to accumulate such hours

Spot on. I have been flying sims sims since before 1990 when the original Red Baron was released. Just sticking with Red Baron and the 33 years that represents and with only flying  10 hours a week, which is unrealistically low, for that time frame I would have accumulated over 17,000 hours. 

10 X 52 = 520 hours a year

520 X 33 = 17,160 hours

11 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

In multiplayer many bomber pilots try to fly lone wolf and are somehow surprised when this ends up being suicidal.

 

Wheels

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Lusekofte said:

once spotted you can just bail out. If this is the case in new sim. I simply won’t bother

I think that behavior will get you banned, in any sim. 

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Lusekofte said:

But in GB you are flying zippo’s

The Japanese planes were all zippos, so… 🔥

[javelina]

19 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The Japanese planes were all zippos, so… 🔥

Tru Dat!

[Amiral Crapaud]

Yeah, it really is a matter of which airplane we're talking about.

Ask the ghost of Butch O'Hare what he thought of the Betties being difficult to shoot down, let's say that different personal experiences might lead to different statements & opinions in the matter 😅

[Feldgrün]

Moments ago in IL-2 GB my FW 190 A-5 made a 1/2 second burst from about 500 meters as the B-26 was banking, and it erupted into flames. Great graphics, but I'm hoping the DM in this game will be more realistic.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Feldgrün

[JediMaster]

It's also a case of aim. The AI in most sims is just too good when it comes to aiming. I'd say when I die in GB, 75% of the time my plane is largely undamaged but I'm killed with a bullet to the cockpit. 

Those types of kills should be the exception, not the rule. A human is a comparatively tiny part of the target, the guns shouldn't be accurate enough with g's and wind and such to allow anyone, especially an AI, to target and successfully hit the pilot that easily, especially with the first bullet of the first burst.

The AI also needs to have imperfect lead. They should fire in front of or behind a target more often, with accuracy growing with experience level because knowing how much lead to pull is 100% something that is learned with experience. Gunners in bombers should also be affected by this.

[charon]

On 6/19/2023 at 6:12 AM, Feldgrün said:

Moments ago in IL-2 GB my FW 190 A-5 made a 1/2 second burst from about 500 meters as the B-26 was banking, and it erupted into flames. Great graphics, but I'm hoping the DM in this game will be more realistic.

See, this just goes to show how difficult the problem is. There's no magic damage model will make everyone happy, or that everyone will agree is realistic. I look at this and see you putting multiple (1/2sec == 10?) 20mm rounds into the upper wing surface of a B-26, right over the fuel tanks, and think it seems perfectly reasonable that this starts serious fires. Yes, the fires probably cover too much of the wing surface and develop instantly, but the net effect is the same; the plane is doomed.

[OriginalCustard]

This will be one of the most important elements for me in Combat Pilot that they get right. The DM in certain other sims really isn't up to scratch (and is laughable at this point) when you can set up a string of B-25 and more or less shoot them down in one approach pass with a P-51.

I really hope ballistics effects (deflections and the like) will be modeled as well as they can be otherwise I fear we will have the laser beams of death scenario repeat itself. Deflections are not modeled in (confirmed by the Devs over in the other sim) Don't mention it over there though or you'll go straight to the naughty corner. 

Watch most any gun-cam footage (Never the best source as they are cherry picked to show the best examples) and Bombers take a real pounding.

 

     

 

[DD_Arthur]

8 minutes ago, Sea Serpent said:

Oh well, at least you have an F-15E to play with now!

Well now you mention it…..😀

Question about gun cam footage; I’ve seen plenty of stuff from 190’s closing on B17s from the rearward - and opening fire out of effective range - but I don’t think I’ve ever seen any head on attacks.

I appreciate that such are the closing speeds the firing window can only be a couple of seconds…..

 

[Mysticpuma]

On 6/19/2023 at 2:12 PM, Feldgrün said:

Moments ago in IL-2 GB my FW 190 A-5 made a 1/2 second burst from about 500 meters as the B-26 was banking, and it erupted into flames. Great graphics, but I'm hoping the DM in this game will be more realistic.

Agree about the DM but hate the over the top fire and smoke effects. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Thank Hollywood for that.  As well as the bogus propeller effects, tracer smoke that spirals, etc...

[wheelsup_cavu]

53 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Thank Hollywood for that. 

Yep, in most movies grenades explode with about as much force as a WW2 era 155 high explosive round...

 

Wheels

[Lusekofte]

Well bombers have to fly in pairs or alone 

there are no massive formation to join. 
what said here is let there be fighters only. 
And I say well enjoy that those who want

And there is just so many proof of loners did survive. If Sharpe Xb wants easy targets. GB is right around the corner. Only obstacle there is avoiding debris 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Lusekofte

[ZachariasX]

On 6/25/2023 at 1:21 AM, BlitzPig_EL said:

tracer smoke that spirals

English 7.7mm.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I'm still not sure about that.

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I'm still not sure about that.

There are a couple of vids out there where you see such. Then again, often you don‘t see it. It might depend on the ammo or other things. None of the tracers I ever shot did this. 🤷‍♂️

[Trooper117]

It could also be down to weather conditions and atmospherics at the time...

[Calos_01]

On 7/26/2023 at 7:00 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

I'm still not sure about that.

I believe these are smoke trails of burning white phosphorus of incendiary rounds. Rounds with offset “weep hole”

 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Calos_01

[Calos_01]

British Military Small Arms Ammo - .303 inch Incendiary (google.com)

I´d say it coud be Incendiary B Mark IV*.z, but not sure. Not very modern at that time (WWI design essentialy)

Edited July 26, 2023 by Calos_01