Carrier take off and landings - Was the IL2 1946 solution "chocks in" the only solution ?

[TP_Bunster]

Im interested in everyones thoughts about this subject.

How do you realistically model spawning and landing on a carrier ? The IL2 1946 solution worked but was a bit of an immersion killer. I wonder what Jason has up his magician sleeves for this ?

Are carrier aircraft lifts workable ? Do you spawn in an available lift (2 a/c per lift) and then get elevated to the carrier deck, lift goes down and then another 2 people can spawn and repeat. Seems quite longwinded or can anyone think of a better solution ?

 

S! Bunster (Tangmere Pilots)

http://www.tangmerepilots.co.uk/NewForum/

[Moro]

That is a good question. In the old il2 I remember we were all on deck and as long as you have the chocks on you avoided the crash.
In the doggy 2 aircraft carriers were used, one for takeoff and one for landing.
I think you have an important job and I hope you comment on how you are doing

[TP_Bunster]

Yes the Chocks In idea worked well but was un-realistic. Im sure Jason and the team have a better idea on how this would work. What do other people think ? any other ideas ?

[Lusekofte]

4 hours ago, TP_Bunster said:

Yes the Chocks In idea worked well but was un-realistic. Im sure Jason and the team have a better idea on how this would work. What do other people think ? any other ideas ?

I do not think they know at this point. Whatever game engine they use or make. 
I think they simply not on this stage yet

[_CJK_]

Lifts would be a must along with the hanger deck and organization. Carriers could be in launch operations or in recovery operations.

Spawn in the hanger deck, do your preflights while aircraft get pushed to the elevator and raised to the rear of the deck for launch. After landing, taxi to the front elevator, brings you down, you can despawn or chose RR and wait for the next cycle of launch operations. The launch and recovery ops could be mission builder set for time periods or left open where people could request either while on mission.

Lots to think about how it could work, especially with the randomness of online, open ended type missions where people join in whenever. 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Spiritus

[wheelsup_cavu]

Something I never liked about DGen in 1946 was that it did not keep track of your flight times. If you flew two sorties on one day you might get back and land  at 1400 hours only to have your next flight start at 1230 hours.

 

Wheels

[JediMaster]

DCS still has trouble with it, with planes sliding around on the deck especially during turns. It's not an easy thing to do if you're not making it all automatically scripted between landings and takeoffs.

[wheelsup_cavu]

1 hour ago, JediMaster said:

DCS still has trouble with it,

So did/does IL-2 1946, especially after the planes land. When Pacific Fighters came out the AI aircraft landed, Toggled Chocks (so they would stay in place on the deck), fold wings (when plane had that capability), and then despawn after about 60 seconds. I do not remember offhand which patch changed that sequence of operations but the Toggle Chocks part of the routine was deleted at some point which allowed the planes to bounce around the deck and in rough seas or when the carrier was moving fairly quickly bounce off the deck and explode.

 

Wheels

[Simfan1998]

Hi, 

The difficulty to simulate deck "actions-interactions" can be perfectly explained by the following video:
 

so, to make it easier for the coder,after landing,  maybe just roll to the lift, go down to the hangar where the game ask you if you want to fly further or end mission.
If you want to fly further, if no dammage, the "game" rolls you further to the back lift and if're dammaged, you wait several minutes for repair and then the games roll the plane to the back lift....just an idea
 

[Trooper117]

Good informative video that!

[Gambit21]

You guys remember being the first Corsair off the deck (online) while carrying Tiny Tim rockets?

Good times.

[Boba Fett]

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

You guys remember being the first Corsair off the deck (online) while carrying Tiny Tim rockets?

Good times.

One of the ‘46 MP servers backed two Saratogas, bow to stern, against each other on Corsair friendly maps. So you had enough deck to launch without a cat shot.

[Gambit21]

1 minute ago, Boba Fett said:

One of the ‘46 MP servers backed two Saratogas, bow to stern, against each other on Corsair friendly maps. So you had enough deck to launch without a cat shot.

 

Huh...I never ran across that one, and didn't know it was possible. Clever.

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Oh yeah, I remember that one.  The hilarity ensued when you attacked one and they would both sink.

 

 

[DD_Arthur]

On 5/25/2023 at 10:22 PM, Gambit21 said:

You guys remember being the first Corsair off the deck (online) while carrying Tiny Tim rockets?

Good times.

That was my first taste of online coops on Hyperlobby and yes, I was first off and went into the drink.

I’m floating in the water, watching the guys fly off the carrier, wondering what to do, when another Corsair went in. Luckily it was the host so we had a restart.

Ten minutes later we’re a loose gaggle of eight approaching an island at seven thousand feet. Our leader waggles his wings and rolls into his dive.

I’m thinking “Now THIS IS cool”😎

[Jaydee]

I remember Skies of Valour in my Seafire from the carrier was Frustrating  with others Spawning until someone sugested "Jaydee Spawning on Carrier " in chat !  " Jaydee Clear" in chat. Worked really well  for most of considerate Pilots. You cant stop "Some pilots" spawning in and  "Full Throttle " across the Grass or Deck with little regard for anyone else...

[DD_Arthur]

On 5/25/2023 at 3:10 PM, Spiritus said:

Lifts would be a must along with the hanger deck and organization. Carriers could be in launch operations or in recovery operations.

Spawn in the hanger deck, do your preflights while aircraft get pushed to the elevator and raised to the rear of the deck for launch. After landing, taxi to the front elevator, brings you down, you can despawn or chose RR 

This is exactly what I’ve envisioned since I first put on a VR headset.

Spawn in the hanger in your Wildcat. The lift goes up, you look up, it’s a fine day, the ensign is streaming in the breeze and smoke is pouring from the stack as the Enterprise turns into the wind and works itself up to full speed. Far above you see the CAP wheeling above the carrier group.You start your engine, unfold the wings and roll forward on the deck….

Edited May 28, 2023 by DD_Arthur

[rollnloop]

Pilots didn't climb into their aircraft in the hangar, they did it on deck. Elevator animations are nice to watch, but on straight carriers, they don't occur at the same time as take offs and recoveries.

 

AFAIK, pilots are not to go into hangars or elevators, bar the one who is magaing the repair crews (in modern Navy, I don't know if they already had a pilot doing this during WW2).

 

 

What could be immersive would be get out of the ready room into stairs, catwalk, deck and then cockpit, but that's a lot of work for a feature many would skip quick.

 

 

 

[Gambit21]

7 hours ago, rollnloop said:

Pilots didn't climb into their aircraft in the hangar, they did it on deck. Elevator animations are nice to watch, but on straight carriers, they don't occur at the same time as take offs and recoveries.

 

AFAIK, pilots are not to go into hangars or elevators, bar the one who is magaing the repair crews (in modern Navy, I don't know if they already had a pilot doing this during WW2).

 

Oh mean you mean the elevator doesn't lower into the hangar bay with 2 aircraft already on it, to pick up the pilot and give him a ride up to the deck like it did for Maverick?

Damn...I was so sure that was real.

 

Edit: (I'm making fun the film, not you btw)

 

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Gambit21

[rollnloop]

😉

 

A less expensive (than the full BF3 sequence) but still quite immersive way would be to have images on the loading screen, when you hit "fly" (à la falcon for those who remember), could be cartoons if actual pictures are lacking. They'd first show pilots exiting the ready room , then climbing stairs, then reaching the catwalk, and finally climbing onboard their plane. When the loading screen is over, player is in the cockpit. If the one with pilot climbing into the cockpit is synced to which aircraft the player lected to fly, that's perfect. If someone who reads this has Jason's attention, maybe make this proposition ?

Edited May 30, 2023 by rollnloop

[TP_Bunster]

This topic was really more to do with how the game engine handles spawning and de-spawning on a carrier deck. IL2 1946 had a specific way of doing it (especially in multiuser) im interested to hear other ideas on how other options might work

[SYN_Vander]

Good question and something to think about before you even code anything. Because it's actually a gameplay decision:

In real life pilots do not individually pick a plane and take-off. They would take-off as a group and land (more or less) as a group.

In a typical multiplayer scenario a player will spawn on a carrier individually, but what if others are about to land? With these WW2 carriers you can't do both at the same time. So how to handle this? Let players only spawn together every x minutes? It would help team play. And how do you let other players land? Have them wait by the tower?

These are indeed important decisions.

About actual spawning mechanic: Starting in a lower deck and using a lift sounds cool, but is not realistic and very time-consuming. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Well, one way this was handled in multiplayer in PF was to have two carriers, one only for takeoff, and one for landing.  Obviously in single player this won't be an issue.

[Boba Fett]

Outside of FPS's and submarine sims, how much walking around on ships is there? Do you get to do it in WoWarships or DCS? I can see a deck mode for pre and post flight as a possibility but I think this thread/community has already eliminated interior and elevator modes aboard carriers as either realistic or practical. 

(A permanent caveat to all of my posts; This is my opinion and not an official position. I have only as much insight as any other member, despite my title.)

[Snafu]

2 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Well, one way this was handled in multiplayer in PF was to have two carriers, one only for takeoff, and one for landing.  Obviously in single player this won't be an issue.

Later came the dynamic dogfights, allowing ships (and anything else) to move in a DF server. That, to me, was the epitomy of realism after many years of everything being static in a DF. Cule and myself ran a dedicated dogfight server for that reason. 
As for deck operations, 1946 may have had a mechanism to make freshly spawned a/c into non- collision objects, but there were many accidents and almost all accidents came with lots of collateral damage. Certainly needs some consideration on how to avoid this.