Please implement finger tracking on clickable cockpits

[343KKT_Kintaro]

I don't know if whether or not the below wish has been expressed before... in such a case please merge this thread with the appropriate one.

 

My dream is that future flight sims are not only VR-compatible but that they also present clickable cockpits with finger tracking so that all the required hardware is nothing but the computer, the VR headset, the HOTAS and, for those who want them, the pedals. The keyboard and the mouse would be used for the launch of the simulation only... but once we are in the simulation, the simple use of one real finger on the virtual clickable controls would allow us to directly fly our aircraft with no need of previous key bindings (on keyboards) nor previous button bindings neither (on HOTAS devices).

 

I'm not asking for the entire removal of the key-binding section from the game. Such a section in the game user interface would be useful not only for players still preferring this method, but also because, after the use of VR headsets, from experience we know that, with little training only, there's no need we see our HOTAS to properly use all its buttons. Thus, when using the finger tracking technology in the VR visual environment, we could simultaneously use plenty of buttons on the HOTAS... but nevertheless definitely dismiss the keyboard and the mouse.

 

Other than using the augmented reality function (which definitely stops my suspension of disbelief), I see no way of pressing keys on a keyboard if not removing (or slightly lifting) the headset. In other words, whether you use the augmented reality or not, you are allways forced to momentarily leave the simulation in order to properly use your keyboard and mouse. This is why, in my opinion, all VR users who seek the perfect simulation should ask for a simulator that dismisses that the use of their keyboards and mouses is mandatory, at least when they're in the simulation.

 

As a conclusion, the above requested feature should be implemented in "Combat Pilot". You fellow pilots who use VR headsets... don't you agree?

 

 

[charon]

I've been thinking about this sort of thing, and I think hand tracking is too niche for most sims right now. Not everyone is using VR and not all VR supports hand tracking, right? Maybe in 10 years. 

I do think that hardware demands are a problem for any high-fidelity sim that wants to expand its market; no developer wants to limit themselves to customers with high-end kit; that's true of VR kit as well as button boxes.

I think what's more achievable now would be making head-tracking the primary means of interaction. Head-tracking is more accessible than ever now, so the effort to support this would pay off for more users than hand-tracking. One HOTAS button to drop head-movement into 1-1 mode for accurate pointing and display a pointer, and one button to actuate the clicky cockpit. You could even combine this with complex flows/prompting, so that the user can first express what they want to achieve in broad strokes, and so help the sim figure out what they're trying to actuate and how (one problem with clicky pits in my experience is that they're prone to dexterity errors).

[Skelthos]

Hand tracking has more to do with headset support than game support. If your headset and its software support hand tracking you can usually make hand tracking work in any title. For most consumer-grade headsets hand tracking is not where it needs to be for 100 reliable use. As much as I would like to see hand tracking functional, I think button boxes or similar will continue to be the go-to for cockpit interaction.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Hey Charon, Skelthos is right. The "Combat Pilot" developers simply need to bring us nice clickable cockpits (with labels that one can turn off please!) and the headsets will make what's left.

 

Release of "Combat Pilot" is planned for release in a few years' time. We can assume that, by then, fingertip tracking will be a standard among most VR headsets.

 

For example, this is how it works with the Meta Quest 3 headset, released 5 months ago:

 

 

 

[Aapje]

On 3/18/2024 at 6:47 PM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

The "Combat Pilot" developers simply need to bring us nice clickable cockpits (with labels that one can turn off please!) and the headsets will make what's left.

It's not simple to do that, because then the game needs to implement the exact controls and their effects, rather than standardizing things. This in turn turns the planes into study-level designs. It makes it much harder to standardize controls.

Even DCS doesn't have clickable cockpits for every plane and they ask a lot of money per plane.

It may be more fun, but is it $50 per plane fun and getting only a fraction of the planes you get now fun?

Edited March 21 by Aapje

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Thank you for your intervention Aapje. Makes sense but...

 

13 hours ago, Aapje said:

turns the planes into study-level designs.

 

No, that part is not true, because the clickable controls would be those of a survey, not those of a study. The "Great Battles" series and the "Dover" series are both survey-level combat flight sims, but "Great Battles" hasn't clickable controls while "Dover" has them. What differs with a study-level like DCS is the number of usable controls in the game. I may be wrong, but I assume that "Combat Pilot" is planned to be a survey-level simulator... unless the content in the game, at release, stays with two carriers only, one map only and two fighter aircraft only... all of these elements being modelled at the study level.

 

 

[RossMarBow]

The great
clickable cockpits vs real buttons vs i just want to play the game
debate

[343KKT_Kintaro]

20 hours ago, RossMarBow said:

The great
clickable cockpits vs real buttons vs i just want to play the game
debate

 

Humour is welcome RossMarBow! but, if you excuse me... out of these three concepts you mentioned, I get what you mean with "clickable cockpits" and "I just want to play the game"... but what do you call "real buttons"? keys on keyboards and buttons on HOTAS?

 

 

[Skelthos]

On 3/23/2024 at 1:35 AM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

. but what do you call "real buttons"? keys on keyboards and buttons on HOTAS?

It does not need to be buttons on either a keyboard or a hotas to be "real buttons" You could also make your own button boxes or even a complete, custom cockpit. There are also other options available such as the one from Winwing that replicates the F/A 18, but adds a lot of physical buttons to your setup.  

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Well, yep, that was what I meant : the physical thing.

 

I hope that Jason and the devs will read this. Maybe clickable cockpits still are problematic in some regards in already existing simulators, but Combat Pilot is in development and could help to improve the feature.

 

 

 

[Trooper117]

I wouldn't want the aircraft here to be like a study sim (DCS)... something similar to the GB series would suffice.

Let's face it, it can take years to produce a single aircraft to DCS standards... we would be waiting many years to get Midway to a full release standard.

Edited March 26 by Trooper117

[Sea Serpent]

1 hour ago, Trooper117 said:

I wouldn't want the aircraft here to be like a study sim (DCS)... something similar to the GB series would suffice.

I certainly disagree with you on that.  I don’t need every circuit breaker modeled, but I’m hoping that CP airplanes have a lot more fidelity and depth than GB.   I understand that “IL-2 in the Pacific” is what a lot of people are looking for, but that doesn’t hold much appeal for me in 2024 and beyond. It isn’t about being able to push a primer button 10 times, LoL, but I would like to have more complex systems modeled under the hood, and the ability to control most of them.  And I think you need that if you want good damage modeling, too.  So, I’m eager to learn at what level CP is supposed to be at, and what kind of audience it’s supposed to appeal to.  (And no, I don’t expect the goal will be grognard-level DCS complexity, even with the WW2 pistons)

 

Edited March 26 by Sea Serpent
Clarified

[Enceladus]

9 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

I hope that Jason and the devs will read this. Maybe clickable cockpits still are problematic in some regards in already existing simulators, but Combat Pilot is in development and could help to improve the feature.

 

I'm not shunning clickable cockpits since as prefer to turn the magnetos and fuel cocks on and off by clicking them instead of assigning key commands and I feel they should only be for those plus maybe a few other things; nobody is asking for a DCS style here. However, I would put having a CloD like aircraft and systems DM, pilots being warned of enemies on their 6, Drop Tanks and swimming models for pilots after parachuting in to the sea and after ditching into the sea like in IL-2 1946 for Combat Pilot over clickable cockpits.

There were things in IL-2 GBs that to add or fix may seem simple but in actuality they would require a lot of work. For instance, one of the devs told me that it would be easier to make a swimming model for pilots after parachuting into water than just making it so that in that situation they don't die because many parameters would have to be changed. The devs said in the Brief Room with Wardog in 2022 that for making it so that your wingmen warn you of aircraft on your 6 it would require a major AI revision. 

I would prefer something like in CFS3 where you hover the mouse over an instrument like the Propeller Pitch and it tells you what it's reading... tooltips. This would be useful for the Japanese planes:

[343KKT_Kintaro]

@Trooper117, clickable cockpits don't necessarily mean study level. See for example "IL-2 Cliffs of Dover" and "DCS", both present clickable cockpits but DCS is a study while IL2CoD is a survey. "IL-2 Great Battles" is a survey sim as well... but its start-up procedures are extremely simplified. Typically, in Great Battles, you simply need to properly set a few levers, press a key, and the engine starts roaring after a beautiful sequence of animated controls on the dashboard and cockpit... controls that in fact you witness yet you do not control you yourself. What makes a study-level sim is the number of required controls and how demanding the procedures are in the sim, but a few steps and controls being required for a start-up, this doesn't really make a sims is a study. DCS modules are study flight sims, sure they are... but Great Battles and Cliffs of Dover are not. That being said, regarding the start-up procedures these are the required steps I'd like to have in "Combat Pilot":

 

1) Magnetos

2) Fuel cocks

3) Radiators

4) Check the position of the boost cut-out, WEP and, in general, this kind of device.

5) Proper setting of the propeller pitch lever

6) Proper setting of the mixture lever

7) Proper setting of the throttle

 

And that's all. More or less like in Cliffs of Dover... but with magnetos working. As just described above, with so few controls being required for an engine start-up, we still are at survey level, not study. DCS is much more time-consuming 'cause much more realistic.

 

My wish for Combat Pilot is:

1) That we have the above described start-up procedure. Half way between DCS (which is too much realistic and time-consuming) and Great Battles (which has been excessively simplified).

2) That the cockpits and clickable... but only on those devices on the dashboard that are affected by a survey-level simulator (like in Great Battles, yet with magnetos and fuel cocks)

3) That the rollover labels on the clickable controls can be turned off so that players who simply don't want to see labels on their cockpits... do not see them (while their remain clickable nevertheless).

 

 

[Trooper117]

OMG... I stated I wouldn't want a study sim like DCS, mainly because of the length of time (years) it takes to make the bloody planes... not that I didn't want a clickable cockpit.

Jesus...

[343KKT_Kintaro]

3 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

OMG... I stated I wouldn't want a study sim like DCS, mainly because of the length of time (years) it takes to make the bloody planes... not that I didn't want a clickable cockpit.

Jesus...

 

 

Easy Trooper, I was responding to your very first post on the thread... assuming that you have read the title and that your post was dealing with the same matter: the bloody clickable cockpits. So there's no need to appeal to Jesus...

 

 

[Sea Serpent]

No more cool songs for you then, Trooper!

🤪

[343KKT_Kintaro]

My friend Trooper will always be granted with cool songs! (the misunderstanding is over gentlemen, let's go back to our discussions...).

 

[CPT Crunch]

I want control over the complete functioning of things like the gun sights, able to set depression angles and adjust the light intensity and turn the bulb on and off.  Also the weapons controls to be able to turn the selectors and set the modes, same with fuel systems.  Anything having to do with a combat system or basic engine and system controls.  Could care less about start sequence beyond setting all the levers we do have control into their proper positions for start, like throttle, mix, and prop levers along with cowl flaps and such when in the start sequence.  Control over any system having to do with actual flight and combat operations.

[343KKT_Kintaro]

On 3/28/2024 at 4:20 PM, CPT Crunch said:

I want control over the complete functioning of things like the gun sights, able to set depression angles and adjust the light intensity and turn the bulb on and off.  Also the weapons controls to be able to turn the selectors and set the modes, same with fuel systems.  Anything having to do with a combat system or basic engine and system controls.  Could care less about start sequence beyond setting all the levers we do have control into their proper positions for start, like throttle, mix, and prop levers along with cowl flaps and such when in the start sequence.  Control over any system having to do with actual flight and combat operations.

 

 

In actual air combat you may manage to extinguish an engine fire... but you'll need to cut the magnetos (and fuel cocks) off so that no oil/fuel lines set other elements on fire again somewhere else on your aircraft. Not even need an on-board fire for the use of magnetos, you might need them to restart an engine while your aircraft still is in full flight. Magnetos and fuel cocks are a must!

 

 

[RossMarBow]

I just want to cut prop (with my mouse wheel)
And pull hard (with my t16 or console controller)