IJA And IJN Air Force Woes

[Boom]

Found this interesting article on Historynet. Japan's Fatally Flawed Air Forces In World War II, by John Whitman.
https://www.historynet.com/japans-fatally-flawed-air-forces-in-world-war-ii-2/

Excellent read.

[Amiral Crapaud]

Then I raise you one Chris & one Claringbould, good companion to all this!

 

[Trooper117]

Good stuff lads!

[javelina]

thanks for the posts, interesting bits of info!

[Canvas25]

15 hours ago, Boom said:

Found this interesting article on Historynet. Japan's Fatally Flawed Air Forces In World War II, by John Whitman.
https://www.historynet.com/japans-fatally-flawed-air-forces-in-world-war-ii-2/

Excellent read.

If everything in that article is true, it's amazing that the Japanese air forces could have lasted more than a few months, let alone years.

[wheelsup_cavu]

Nice find @Canvas25. 😎

 

Wheels

[Canvas25]

Not my find - credit to @Boom

[ÆþelrædUnræd]

On 6/19/2023 at 5:11 AM, Boom said:

Found this interesting article on Historynet. Japan's Fatally Flawed Air Forces In World War II, by John Whitman.
https://www.historynet.com/japans-fatally-flawed-air-forces-in-world-war-ii-2/

Excellent read.

It does kinda completely miss the point that the Japanese never intended to fight a long war of attrition. Their whole strategy was to hit fast and hit hard, so that the Americans would quickly agree to a white peace, precisely to *avoid* any such lengthy war.

How realistic this desire was in retrospect is a different question, but if you don't wage a war of attrition, little of what this article says matters.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The Imperial Japanese truly believed their own propaganda about the Western powers.  Huge mistake.

They played stupid games, and won stupid prizes.

 

[wheelsup_cavu]

Just now, BlitzPig_EL said:

The Imperial Japanese truly believed their own propaganda

For the most part the propaganda of the Western powers towards the Japanese was not any less misguided.

 

Wheels

[BlitzPig_EL]

Drawing comparisons does not change the fact that the Japanese totally misjudged our reaction to their aggression.

They thought we would fold, they were utterly mistaken.  They planted the seeds and reaped the whirlwind.

[Chief_Mouser]

8 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

They thought we would fold, they were utterly mistaken.  

Yamamoto wasn't. He predicted what would happen if they took on the industrial might of the USA.

[Trooper117]

1 hour ago, Chief_Mouser said:

Yamamoto wasn't. He predicted what would happen if they took on the industrial might of the USA.

Well, they should have listened shouldn't they... and he got to see a bit of that industrial might at the wrong end of a P-38...

[Chief_Mouser]

16 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

... and he got to see a bit of that industrial might at the wrong end of a P-38...

Made a co-op mission for that in Il-2 46. Air start low over water but still twenty minutes or so to get to Bougainville. As soon as we spawned those that hadn't read the briefing shot off in all directions and were never seen again - which left the two Bettys and their escort for the rest of us 😁.

[wheelsup_cavu]

15 hours ago, Chief_Mouser said:

Made a co-op mission for that in Il-2 46.

Made the mission for Dogfight mode flying from Henderson to Bougainville and back when the Solomons map was released. The 352ndVFG flew it annually until about two maybe three years ago when we transitioned fully to the BoX platform. Round trip took about 2.5 hours if you had no engine damage.

 

Wheels

[ÆþelrædUnræd]

On 7/1/2023 at 12:21 AM, BlitzPig_EL said:

The Imperial Japanese truly believed their own propaganda about the Western powers.  Huge mistake.

Well, at least the top brass were fully aware that the US were immensely powerful (or at least, would be once they put their industrial might to use). They didn't have much alternatives to declaring war though. Given that:
- the Japanese wanted to conquer China (and southeast Asia by extension), and
- they were dependent on oil to further these objectives,

it follows that they needed to capture the Dutch East Indies to obtain oil as Japan was under embargo. They then surmised that this would likely lead the US to declare war, as well as the US colony of the Philippines being rather inconveniently located directly on the sea route from the Indonesian oil fields to Japan. So in the end, they had only two options really:
- give up their imperial ambitions in China, or
- prepare for war with the US.

Given that they weren't prepared to do the former, this left the latter as the only viable choice.* They were fully aware they needed to hit the Americans as hard as possible in the early months where they'd still have the advantage, hence the Pearl Harbour raid. One can only guess what'd have happened if the US carrier fleet had been in port.

Even when the war turned for the worse, it's important to recognise that the Japanese didn't need to win. They only needed to not lose. As long as they held the Dutch oil fields and were able to keep the US at bay, they'd still be better off than in mid-1941.

* Of course, the doctrines of Cpt. Hindsight dictate that the other option would've been the better one.

Edited July 2, 2023 by ÆþelrædUnræd

[PatrickAWilson]

I always get the feeling that being a Japanese pilot was pretty suicidal by mid 1943.  It certainly felt that way in past flight sims.  The Zeroes and Oscars they were mostly flying were not terribly different than the models of two years prior, meanwhile the Americans were fielding Hellcats, Corsairs, and P-38s - in large quantities to boot.  

AI is going to be an interesting aspect in the early years.  Americans survived by fielding tougher planes and working as a team.  It would be something to see AI that could actually fly as a team in a meaningful way.  Thach weave anyone?

 

 

[Boom]

On 7/1/2023 at 7:37 PM, Trooper117 said:

Well, they should have listened shouldn't they... and he got to see a bit of that industrial might at the wrong end of a P-38...

Have always been fascinated as to what Yamamoto actually thought when his aircraft came under fire of the P-38's; if he had the time.

Was he shocked that US aircraft could reach so far north? Did he finally doubt the reports of the previous two weeks where his aircrews and their leaders in Operation I-Go had claimed massive successes?

Or was he perhaps glad to die, knowing that Japan had already lost the war. And he wouldn't have to face the shame and horror that loss?

[CPT Crunch]

On 7/2/2023 at 7:50 AM, ÆþelrædUnræd said:

Well, at least the top brass were fully aware that the US were immensely powerful (or at least, would be once they put their industrial might to use). They didn't have much alternatives to declaring war though. Given that:
- the Japanese wanted to conquer China (and southeast Asia by extension), and
- they were dependent on oil to further these objectives,

it follows that they needed to capture the Dutch East Indies to obtain oil as Japan was under embargo. They then surmised that this would likely lead the US to declare war, as well as the US colony of the Philippines being rather inconveniently located directly on the sea route from the Indonesian oil fields to Japan. So in the end, they had only two options really:
- give up their imperial ambitions in China, or
- prepare for war with the US.

Given that they weren't prepared to do the former, this left the latter as the only viable choice.* They were fully aware they needed to hit the Americans as hard as possible in the early months where they'd still have the advantage, hence the Pearl Harbour raid. One can only guess what'd have happened if the US carrier fleet had been in port.

Even when the war turned for the worse, it's important to recognise that the Japanese didn't need to win. They only needed to not lose. As long as they held the Dutch oil fields and were able to keep the US at bay, they'd still be better off than in mid-1941.

* Of course, the doctrines of Cpt. Hindsight dictate that the other option would've been the better one.

They were in now way limited to only two options, up till November 41 they still had not decided whether to join Germany in the assault on the Soviet Union or attacking Pearl.  Doing that would have grossly affected the war in Europe, and probably swung it the other way leading to a very different outcome.  As it was the alliance was on paper only.

[Chief_Mouser]

2 hours ago, CPT Crunch said:

They were in now way limited to only two options, up till November 41 they still had not decided whether to join Germany in the assault on the Soviet Union or attacking Pearl.  

After being defeated by the Russians at Khalkin Gol / Nomonhan in 1939 the powers that be in Japan realised that they had to go east if they were to achieve their goals. From then on they had no interest in a war against Russia at all. It was Germany that joined Japan after Pearl Harbor; not the other way around.

[CPT Crunch]

Absolutely not true, they made an agreement that was finalized close to Nov 41 with the Soviets, who had an agent present in Tokyo.  As you recall troops in Russia were sent in mass right around that time west for the Moscow defense.  And troops from the Imperial mainland armies composed of Koreans and Manchurian were suddenly sent south and off continent.  That never occurred until and arrangement had been agreed upon.  One of the reasons why Japan to this day still refuses to officially end the war with Russia, they still see a betrayal.  And how do we know all this, it was in the 91 Communist party archives when they were suddenly opened to the public.  The Russians knew in advance Pearl was on.  Nobody is stupid enough to start a whole new front without securing an older one first.  They had the option to help Germany take down Russia, but chose to use that as leverage against Russia to secure peace during their hour of desperation, assuring a single front. 

And that is why Russia was able to do this unhindered with zero interference by the Imperial Navy.

Quote

During WWII, the port of Vladivostok turned over more than 10 million tons of cargo, 79 percent of it imported. The port processed 32,000 freighters; it loaded and sent on the Trans-Siberian Railway almost 400,000 railroad cars (covered and flatbeds).