Put a end to the Owl head view?

[BlitzPig_EL]

Just another case of the "harder is more real" nonsense that permeates the combat sim genre. 

[SharpeXB]

12 hours ago, dburne said:

Actually it was started by some VR players to try and get equal footing as the accelerated view Track IR players do.

It doesn’t seem like equal footing so much as handicapping everyone to an unrealistic degree. If a VR player wants the full motion to turn and look they’re certainly free to do that. There’s nothing stopping them from moving as much as the real pilots do except the effort. The fact that this requires physical effort in VR is a choice made by the player. Snap views on a keyboard can accomplish the same thing faster than either VR or head tracking. So what’s the point?

Edited June 12, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Sea Serpent]

Instead of neck strain on the 1:1 VR pilots, may I suggest a nice and cozy swivel chair?

[dburne]

9 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It doesn’t seem like equal footing so much as handicapping everyone to an unrealistic degree. If a VR player wants the full motion to turn and look they’re certainly free to do that. There’s nothing stopping them from moving as much as the real pilots do except the effort. The fact that this requires physical effort in VR is a choice made by the player. Snap views on a keyboard can accomplish the same thing faster than either VR or head tracking. So what’s the point?

Edit: Nevermind not worth it.

Edited June 12, 2023 by dburne

[javelina]

At this point in the timeline, I'm not going to sweat it...   Once we have our CP, I know Norbert will have a port of his XRnecksafer regardless.  I use it in IL-2, DCS, and MSFS....

[Baldrick]

19 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It doesn’t seem like equal footing so much as handicapping everyone to an unrealistic degree. If a VR player wants the full motion to turn and look they’re certainly free to do that. There’s nothing stopping them from moving as much as the real pilots do except the effort. The fact that this requires physical effort in VR is a choice made by the player. Snap views on a keyboard can accomplish the same thing faster than either VR or head tracking. So what’s the point?

It has been explained many times but most VR headsets lack the FOV and/or edge to edge clarity to equate to what real pilots do or indeed lesser mortal sim pilots do when they look behind them. I don’t have an issue turning around in my seat to look behind me in the real world, in a virtual environment I have to turn more, hence the desire to mimic what we can do in real life.

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

It has been explained many times but most VR headsets lack the FOV and/or edge to edge clarity to equate to what real pilots do or indeed lesser mortal sim pilots do when they look behind them. I don’t have an issue turning around in my seat to look behind me in the real world, in a virtual environment I have to turn more, hence the desire to mimic what we can do in real life.

Yes everyone understands this about VR. But that limitation doesn’t justify handicapping monitor using players down to that level. Those limitations have to do with VR HMDs not anything to do with what a RW pilot could see. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Baldrick]

7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Yes everyone understands this about VR. But that limitation doesn’t justify handicapping monitor using players down to that level. Those limitations have to do with VR HMDs not anything to do with what a RW pilot could see. 

I was responding to your comment “There’s nothing stopping them from moving as much as the real pilots do except the effort.” and explaining why that comment was simply wrong.

[Baldrick]

It seems pretty clear that unless you have a 360 wrap around screen that some kind of non 1:1 view to head movement is essential for trackir, for single screen non trackir then snap views are a must. So it just makes sense some kind of exaggerated view in VR should be equally allowable for those that desire it, be it to overcome limitations of fov or limited mobility.

Creating divides between VR and TrackIR users doesn’t really help IMHO

[BlitzPig_EL]

Baldrick, there is a subset of players that think that all players should be forced to play the sim(any sim) like they do, and if you don't then you should just go play War Thunder.  

Ignore them.

[Trooper117]

I can remember years ago when TrackIR first came out... all hell broke loose on the forums about it was unfair, TrackIR users have a huge advantage, it will ruin the game, the sky is falling etc...

I had no problem with the fact that I didn't have one at that stage, but eventually I knew I would get one... and when they became common, it was still moaned about being  unrealistic because you could see 180 degrees behind... and now, we have VR, and still there is more, shall I say debating 'unfair' issues again.

Glad to see nothing changes... lol!  

I guess it's mainly down to the MP element being concerned, but hey ho, I just enjoy what I have, and it never bothered me playing MP without TrackIR even if they did have the advantage... I don't have VR by the way... (too stingy to buy one)  

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, Baldrick said:

So it just makes sense some kind of exaggerated view in VR should be equally allowable for those that desire it, be it to overcome limitations of fov or limited mobility.

That makes more sense than artificially limiting the view for other players. I know there are mods which do this in any case. 

[SharpeXB]

11 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

it was still moaned about being  unrealistic because you could see 180 degrees behind

Which is odd because mouse and snap-view users could do the same thing.

[Boom]

First and foremost it's a 'game'. So naturally there will be a huge division between the hard core and more lighthearted amongst us.

A clever developer will cater for both. Offline the player should have the option to do as they please regarding 'difficulty'. Online? Make server selection based on how hard core one wants to play with rear vision on factor.

Ideally Jason and co will develop rear views based on each specific aircraft's cockpit design. One condition of rear view has to be that the pilot is firmly strapped in. No real pilot would fly in combat with loose shoulder straps; if he manoeuvred violently he would knock himself out against the canopy as he was thrown about.

As folks have mentioned, a bubble cockpit allows far greater rear view than does a standard rectangular design. For example, the A6M Zero, P-51 D and P-47D have great rear view's. Almost as good were the Spitfire and Malcolm hood Mustangs. The F4U, P-38, P-39, Ki-43, Ki-44, Ki-84 and N1K less so. The Hurricane, Ki-61, P-40, F2A, F4F and F6F would be the most restricted, although having sat in a P-40 I can safely say it would be possible to see at least 140 degrees rearward.

[charon]

52 minutes ago, Boom said:

One condition of rear view has to be that the pilot is firmly strapped in. No real pilot would fly in combat with loose shoulder straps; if he manoeuvred violently he would knock himself out against the canopy as he was thrown about.

Color me extremely skeptical. To me it seems equally obvious that no real pilot would fly in combat with tight shoulder straps -- he wouldn't be able to see anything behind him!

Quote

Me 109 G-2/G-6:
- Fit like a glove?
"Yes, fit in my hand right away."
- How comfortable was the Me cockpit? Did your glove fit well on the stick? I suppose the gauges were well positioned and it was easy to command?
"Yes, it fit like a glove."
- Was it a tight fit?
"You got used to it. Both shoulders were against wall, which didn't help when you had to look all around in a battle. But we weren't wearing too much either."
- How did you see out?
"The armored glass made it a bit difficult to see behind, you had to kick the rudder a little to get a view. "
- How about when doing a climbing turn, how well did you see behind?
"Surprisingly well. "
- Tightly strapped in your seat and still could look behind?
"The straps weren't so tight you couldn't move. Sometimes a lot. "
- Mauno Fräntilä, Finnish fighter ace. 5 1/2 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association: Chief Warrant Officer Mauno Fräntilä.

Mauno Frantila

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-MaunoFrantila2English.html

 

Quote

How well could you observe those pursuers?
It could be done quite well. There was nothing. I did see when he would...I learned to notice that there, now he is about to shoot because he tightened his turn and it could be seen that he tried... Actually it was very amusing. I was not in any trouble.
How steep was the climbing angle?
It was about the optimal rate of climb

About looking down, could you stretch yourself to look down or were you tightly strapped in the seat?
We used to pull the belts tight

Hemmo Leino

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-HemmoLeinoEnglish.html

Tight belts, although in this case I'm unsure if he means only the belt, or the shoulder straps as well.

 

Quote

Shoulder straps be used?

- Used. Although sometimes it was only the belt.

Golodnikov Nikolai Gerasimovich

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/416072-interview-with-russian-pilot-golodnikov-nikolai-gerasimovich/

 

Quote

How did the safety harness fit you? Did it secure you to the seat? Did you use the shoulder straps?

I did not use the shoulder harness. The same was generally true of other pilots. We only used the seat belt.

Leonid Sergeevich Kulakov

https://lend-lease.net/articles-en/interview-with-leonid-sergeevich-kulakov/

The shoulder harness not used at all!

Quote

Gun switch "on". gunsight "on." Check the chute harness. Shoulder and leg straps tight, catches secure, the harness fastened. Don't make it easy for the Jerries -- check the "elephant trunk". I inspect the oxygen tube...

Robert S Johson, Thunderbolt, Kindle Edition p112

Note that while Johnson mentions checking the parachute straps before combat, he makes no mention of tightening the shoulder belts.

[SharpeXB]

5 hours ago, Boom said:

One condition of rear view has to be that the pilot is firmly strapped in. No real pilot would fly in combat with loose shoulder straps

Not true. Watch the video, you can see the straps hanging loose from the F-18 pilot.

If pilots were so strapped in why did 109 pilots remove their armored headrests? 
”Only the protective armor plate behind my head kept me from being killed by a 20mm. I used to inspect all of the aircraft, as some men would take this plate out. It reduced rearward visibility by about twenty percent, so they removed it.” 
- Johannes Steinhoff, The German Aces Speak II

You’ll survive bumping your head on the canopy, you won’t survive eating bullets. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

5 hours ago, Boom said:

As folks have mentioned, a bubble cockpit allows far greater rear view than does a standard rectangular design.

If the pilot was so tightly strapped in, how did they make use of this bubble canopy? Realize this canopy actually creates more drag and has less stability than the previous bulkhead design. Why then change the design?

[charon]

Quote

Did you use seat belts when you flew Yaks?

Mostly waist belts. I did not use shoulder belts because they limited movement. Of course the risk in case of belly landing increased, but we never thought about it. Most important was that you had to see everything.

Vladimir Mikhailovich Mukhmediarov

https://lend-lease.net/articles-en/interview-with-vladimir-mikhailovich-mukhmediarov-pilot-of-14th-gviap/

[Gambit21]

I’m hoping that we get enhanced, 720 degree owl-head view.

 

 

 

[Sea Serpent]

52 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

I’m hoping that we get enhanced, 720 degree owl-head view.

This is a flight simulation, not an exorcism!