AI flight model

[JG27_Steini]

I hope you guy's know what you will do. We have seen compative AI with "light" flight model or boring, easy mode AI with "realistic" flight model. Realistic flight model has its advantages, but for who? For a minority that wants to fly against a "real" flight model. The majority likes entertaining duels where an "ACE" setup behave like an ace. Aces in WW2 were hardly to get shot down, a normal pilot was a challenge. Most of us are aces after years of flying. Dont let us shoot ducks (again). Thank u.

[JFM]

I can speak for neither the majority nor minority, but isn’t MP for that? In any event, count me in the minority: In SP I don’t want to see enemy planes flying like Patty Wagstaff in an Extra 300 at Oshkosh, with a laser focus only on me. AI that acts like a cross between the Terminator and some Hollywood CGI movie is 🙄 to me. Sneaking up unnoticed behind an AI plane and blasting him out of the sky—something I can’t do very often in any sim because they seem to always sense you coming, no matter how deep in a blind spot or how bright the sun behind you— isn’t/wouldn’t be boring for me. That was the goal, and I try to replicate it. Dogfighting is when you’ve lost that tactical advantage or never had it. Anyway, I expect more from Combat Pilot than merely fighter vs fighter dogfighting. 

I fully understand and respect a differing opinion, though, and maybe I’m just the world’s worst sim pilot. 😀 Seems user options (e.g. scalable enemy skill level) would be beneficial for all to personally tailor their experience. Regardless, I have some tough, tough times ahead of me in my Devastator. 

[Trooper117]

2 hours ago, JFM said:

but isn’t MP for that?

Absolutely right! 

[spreckair]

I only fly in VR, and "reality" is what I seek in my flight simming experience.  I realize that reality will probably always be a bridge too far, but I hope the developers keep it as a guiding principal.  I would love to see the AI fly as "real" as possible, and as historically relevant as possible.  On my side, I would like to see my flight actually follow my orders, and for my wingman to act as a wingman did.  On the other side, I would like to see the enemy fly like they did during the real conflict.  Otherwise it is a game more than a sim.

[Boba Fett]

In watching hundreds of hours of air combat docs, I can say with confidence that wingmen stay with you for only a small percentage of the time once contact has occurred. There are hundreds of sound bites where a pilot engaged or disengaged and, "found myself alone in the sky without any friends or enemies," to speak of. Entire flights often misunderstand radio calls or miss hearing them at all. While we all want better wingmen, the fog of war and reality dictates they be at least moderately unreliable (after contact anyway) to be accurate.

[Mysticpuma]

5 hours ago, Boba Fett said:

In watching hundreds of hours of air combat docs, I can say with confidence that wingmen stay with you for only a small percentage of the time once contact has occurred. There are hundreds of sound bites where a pilot engaged or disengaged and, "found myself alone in the sky without any friends or enemies," to speak of. Entire flights often misunderstand radio calls or miss hearing them at all. While we all want better wingmen, the fog of war and reality dictates they be at least moderately unreliable (after contact anyway) to be accurate.

Most would get" chewed our" on RTB because they had one job... to protect their lead and if they don't, the lead certainly made sure they didn't do it again. 

[Jade_Monkey]

Personally, i think it should be somewhere between DCS and GB.

DCS has a cheating AI FM that will literally UFO around. One easy way to test it is to use Active Pause when they are on your tail, they will hover or even fly backwards to stay behind you.

GB they presumably uses all the same parameters as the player but it also brings the game engine down to its knees when you increase the number of planes.

Something not as ridiculous as DCS but simplified enough to not be a bottleneck would be the best solution for me.

[Gambit21]

On 10/25/2023 at 11:10 PM, Mysticpuma said:

Most would get" chewed our" on RTB because they had one job... to protect their lead and if they don't, the lead certainly made sure they didn't do it again. 

It simply didn’t happen that way most of the time in WWII. There exceptions, but by and large once the fight began it was every man for himself.

 

 

 

[Mysticpuma]

I spoke with a couple of Aces of the 325th FG who said it did and a couple of wingmen but each individual to themselves.

[Gambit21]

10 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

I spoke with a couple of Aces of the 325th FG who said it did and a couple of wingmen but each individual to themselves.

I think it was the intention, but depending on time frame, squadron etc it usually didn’t end up shaking out that way in larger fights.

I interviewed a handful of pilots from the 352nd for instance, and they all verified the “every man for himself” effect. Of course we know of places where discipline was maintained out of necessity - Jimmy Thach etc.

[ZachariasX]

On 10/30/2023 at 10:17 AM, Mysticpuma said:

I spoke with a couple of Aces of the 325th FG who said it did and a couple of wingmen but each individual to themselves.

Iteresting. In the ETO, that would have you grounded pretty quickly. Losing your leader is essentially what got Clostermann banished from flying Mk.IX over the Channel to flying old Mk.V over the arctic.

[ZachariasX]

On 10/30/2023 at 9:07 PM, Gambit21 said:

I interviewed a handful of pilots from the 352nd for instance, and they all verified the “every man for himself” effect. Of course we know of places where discipline was maintained out of necessity - Jimmy Thach etc.

Flying the Wildcat, I sure would have hated if my wingman had other plans than staying with me. At 18000 ft. in a Corsair or P38, I could understand that folks would have been more relaxed in scoring just by themselves.

[Mysticpuma]

55 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Iteresting. In the ETO, that would have you grounded pretty quickly. Losing your leader is essentially what got Clostermann banished from flying Mk.IX over the Channel to flying old Mk.V over the arctic.

I agree. The pilots I spoke to regarded their wingmen/leader greatly and stuck with them as best their ability let them. 

[Gambit21]

8 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Flying the Wildcat, I sure would have hated if my wingman had other plans than staying with me. At 18000 ft. in a Corsair or P38, I could understand that folks would have been more relaxed in scoring just by themselves.

No doubt.

I was just reading again last night in Gamble’s book on the Blacksheep “everyone separating as the fight begins” 

[Gambit21]

8 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

I agree. The pilots I spoke to regarded their wingmen/leader greatly and stuck with them as best their ability let them. 

Problem is that once the fur starts to fly, adrenaline and tunnel vision, SA issues etc take over. Again nothing is all the time, however the above items play into the pilots ‘ability’ you mention.

Reality was that often (not always) there was little or no cohesion in these circumstances.

Bud Anderson didn’t have his wingman with him in his ‘straight up’ fight for instance, everyone was scattered all over the sky. This is why you hear about the massive fight, “then suddenly I was alone” phenomenon over and over again. This is why over and over pilot’s are lost, and nobody saw what happened. I’ve track already of how many times this happened just with VMF 214 alone, Wildcats and Corsairs, not even halfway up the Solomons yet.

 

Edited November 3 by Gambit21

[Trooper117]

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

This is why you hear about the massive fight, “then suddenly I was alone” phenomenon over and over again.

Yep, phrases like that keep cropping up in many of the accounts that I have read...

[Mysticpuma]

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Problem is that once the fur starts to fly, adrenaline and tunnel vision, SA issues etc take over. Again nothing is all the time, however the above items play into the pilots ‘ability’ you mention.

Reality was that often (not always) there was little or no cohesion in these circumstances.

Bud Anderson didn’t have his wingman with him in his ‘straight up’ fight for instance, everyone was scattered all over the sky. This is why you hear about the massive fight, “then suddenly I was alone” phenomenon over and over again. This is why over and over pilot’s are lost, and nobody saw what happened. I’ve track already of how many times this happened just with VMF 214 alone, Wildcats and Corsairs, not even halfway up the Solomons yet.

 

Here's a short clip where Frank Mertely (who was on his first mission) talks about being wingman to P-51 Ace Barrie Davis of the 325th FG.

Clip starts at the 1hr 36m 30seconds mark:

 

Edited November 3 by Mysticpuma

[Gambit21]

Lead - “You’re the first guy who’s ever stayed with me in a fight”

Wingman - ”I didn’t admit to him I was just lucky”

 

Perfect illustration of what I was saying. Further, throw in a second German fighter and that would have been the end of him staying with his lead. 🙂

 

 

 

[GrungyMonkey]

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Further, throw in a second German fighter and that would have been the end of him s̶t̶a̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ h̶i̶s̶ l̶e̶a̶d̶.

Poor guy was NOT ready for a 1v1 dogfight

[RossMarBow]

Personally

I think AI should be smart enough to carry out an objective given to them

i.e. take off fly to area bomb area fly home
be able to do some basic dodging and six covering

But making an AI that is good at 1v1 dogfights just seems like a total waste of time