AI: Please try to make it a bit more human

[PatrickAWilson]

I know AI is very challenging, but I'll ask anyway.  Please try to make the AI a bit human.

1. Survival instinct.  Not even the Japanese fought every battle to the death every time.  If a plane gets shot up, make escape a top priority.

2. Make flying and shooting skill relative to pilot skill. Skilled pilots should make fewer mistakes and have more maneuvers up their sleeve.  Newbie pilots should have a more limited decision tree and be more prone to doing stupid things like turn fighting in a Wildcat or flying straight and level.  Skilled pilots should also have better SA.  Make it possible to bounce the AI.

3. Make the AI stop fighting and go home.  Pilots simply did not chase everything they saw all the way back to base.  Put the AI through some simple decision making before it decides to engage.  What are the odds?  What is the situation in terms of relative energy?  What is the combat situation - i.e. is it necessary to risk all because your carrier is underneath you or is the situation more mundane and engaging at unfavorable odds is a bad idea.  Allow the AI to decide on a hit and run approach instead of engaging to the death.  Once the AI is set on a course, let them stick to it as much as possible.

This does not have to be some sort of massive AI experiment to create the perfect AI combat sim pilot (although if you want to do that then go for it).  I am talking about add something on the order of: if (condition) accounting for pilot skill do this with a bit of randomization thrown in.  Enough such that combating the AI is a varied experience.

Thanks for listening.

[Feathered_IV]

And if you are going for a complex FM for each aircraft, please don’t give the AI the same one as the player. Please consider having a simplified FM for the AI to use. Experience has shown how complex FMs drastically limit the number of AI that can be in the air at one time. And also severely reduce the number of things that the AI can actually accomplish. 

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, Feathered_IV said:

And if you are going for a complex FM for each aircraft, please don’t give the AI the same one as the player. Please consider having a simplified FM for the AI to use. Experience has shown how complex FMs drastically limit the number of AI that can be in the air at one time. And also severely reduce the number of things that the AI can actually accomplish. 

Jason won’t repeat that mistake - don’t worry.
 

“AI uses same FM as the player!!”

Is not a positive selling point unless you’re ignorant or how it cripples the game. Granted some are still ignorant - booting up BoX will quickly fix that.

 

 

[charon]

6 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

And if you are going for a complex FM for each aircraft, please don’t give the AI the same one as the player. Please consider having a simplified FM for the AI to use. Experience has shown how complex FMs drastically limit the number of AI that can be in the air at one time. And also severely reduce the number of things that the AI can actually accomplish. 

I disagree with you and @Gambit21 both. For me at least, the fair AI was a big selling point compared to DCS, and most (not all, but most) of the issues I have with the BoX AI are targeting problems that appear to have nothing to do with the fact that the AI uses the same flight model as the player.

Take the ground attack AI, for instance. In BoX, ground attackers will often just trundle slowly to their target. Sometimes they'll let you fly formation with them. Sometimes I've even seen them continue unperturbed towards their target after being shot. No sense of self preservation at all... but what does that have to do with them using the same flight model?

Often you'll see a gaggle of three or four AI fighters chasing the same enemy. That's not a question of flight model physics, that's a question of making sure the AI divides up up its targeting priorities.

Or how about the fact that, once the AI has chosen a target, it will ignore clouds while pursuing and shooting at it? What does that have to do with the AI flight model physics?

Or the fact that AI fighters will happily accept a fight in which they're badly disadvantaged, rather than turning tail and climbing for altitude when they spot you in the distance?

What the AI needs is good tactical sense. Making a fair AI that can win 1:1 duels against top players will likely take a monumental development effort. Making a fair AI that can fight competently, not suicidally, in a sky full of 20 planes, that is far more important. How the AI performs in a white-room duel shouldn't be the measure of a sim.

 

Now, I haven't worked on their code base, maybe I'm mistaken and Jason will show up and tell us that there is some fundamental reason why a fair AI can't have the tactical sense to disengage from a losing fight. But I doubt it.

[dburne]

10 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

And if you are going for a complex FM for each aircraft, please don’t give the AI the same one as the player. Please consider having a simplified FM for the AI to use. Experience has shown how complex FMs drastically limit the number of AI that can be in the air at one time. And also severely reduce the number of things that the AI can actually accomplish. 

 

👍

[Feathered_IV]

3 hours ago, charon said:

I disagree with you and @Gambit21 both. For me at least, the fair AI was a big selling point compared to DCS, and most (not all, but most) of the issues I have with the BoX AI are targeting problems that appear to have nothing to do with the fact that the AI uses the same flight model as the player.

Take the ground attack AI, for instance. In BoX, ground attackers will often just trundle slowly to their target. Sometimes they'll let you fly formation with them. Sometimes I've even seen them continue unperturbed towards their target after being shot. No sense of self preservation at all... but what does that have to do with them using the same flight model?

Often you'll see a gaggle of three or four AI fighters chasing the same enemy. That's not a question of flight model physics, that's a question of making sure the AI divides up up its targeting priorities.

Or how about the fact that, once the AI has chosen a target, it will ignore clouds while pursuing and shooting at it? What does that have to do with the AI flight model physics?

Or the fact that AI fighters will happily accept a fight in which they're badly disadvantaged, rather than turning tail and climbing for altitude when they spot you in the distance?

What the AI needs is good tactical sense. Making a fair AI that can win 1:1 duels against top players will likely take a monumental development effort. Making a fair AI that can fight competently, not suicidally, in a sky full of 20 planes, that is far more important. How the AI performs in a white-room duel shouldn't be the measure of a sim.

 

Now, I haven't worked on their code base, maybe I'm mistaken and Jason will show up and tell us that there is some fundamental reason why a fair AI can't have the tactical sense to disengage from a losing fight. But I doubt it.

Charon, you didn’t get those things because all the effort went into just getting the AI to accomplish the basics, using the same complex FM as the player. 

[Smink1701]

20 hours ago, PatrickAWilson said:

I know AI is very challenging, but I'll ask anyway.  Please try to make the AI a bit human.

1. Survival instinct.  Not even the Japanese fought every battle to the death every time.  If a plane gets shot up, make escape a top priority.

2. Make flying and shooting skill relative to pilot skill. Skilled pilots should make fewer mistakes and have more maneuvers up their sleeve.  Newbie pilots should have a more limited decision tree and be more prone to doing stupid things like turn fighting in a Wildcat or flying straight and level.  Skilled pilots should also have better SA.  Make it possible to bounce the AI.

3. Make the AI stop fighting and go home.  Pilots simply did not chase everything they saw all the way back to base.  Put the AI through some simple decision making before it decides to engage.  What are the odds?  What is the situation in terms of relative energy?  What is the combat situation - i.e. is it necessary to risk all because your carrier is underneath you or is the situation more mundane and engaging at unfavorable odds is a bad idea.  Allow the AI to decide on a hit and run approach instead of engaging to the death.  Once the AI is set on a course, let them stick to it as much as possible.

This does not have to be some sort of massive AI experiment to create the perfect AI combat sim pilot (although if you want to do that then go for it).  I am talking about add something on the order of: if (condition) accounting for pilot skill do this with a bit of randomization thrown in.  Enough such that combating the AI is a varied experience.

Thanks for listening.

Yes, yes, fuck yes!

[Jason_Williams]

Guys,

We are a ways away from having to tackle these type of issues. Obviously I am aware of issues surrounding AI. Pat is a talented programmer in his own right so he has some insight into how to do things. 
 

All I can say is this. Perception is reality. As long as players perceive the AI to be behaving and flying in a ‘realistic’ or ‘human’ way and not violating the laws of physics, I don’t care how it’s done or if they actually fly the planes as they did in my previous product. We are very cognizant of the fact that we need to have inexpensive, but believable AI that can put up a good fight. 
 

We shall see how it develops.

Jason

[Gambit21]

18 hours ago, charon said:

I disagree with you and @Gambit21 both. 

That’s because you’re not a mission builder. 😉

 

 

 

[JG27_Steini]

13 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

AI that can put up a good fight. 
 

Love that statement, i really wish i heard it a decade earlier from another team.

[Mysticpuma]

I'm sure Jason said he was going to try and contact Buddeye, which would be amazing if it comes off 😎