Good AI: Much Requested, Rarely Delivered

[ÆþelrædUnræd]

3 hours ago, Sea Serpent said:

I’d like to see AI much better than something from all those years ago.  Not only would I like to see it more intelligent, I also think it should be voice commanded.  I don’t necessarily mean Voice Attack, I mean like some of the things being used in FSX over 10 years ago, such as FS2crew or Multicrew Experience that were already pre-tailored for the most popular payware aircraft of the time.  But built in. If I’m in a fight, I don’t want to be mashing hot keys, navigating a menu with a mouse, or even the DCS Jester Wheel.  I want to say “Second flight, attack the far carrier”, and they’d be smart enough to do it,  just like I could say “Flaps 15” or “Turn on isolation valve number 2” to the virtual first officer in an airliner.   (It goes without saying this would be especially useful for planes with more than one crew member, not just AI wingmen) This is old tech, that used existing speech stuff already in Windows, and I’m surprised we haven’t seen it in a combat sim yet.  
 

 

Well, coming from someone who's well versed in AI, I don't think that's quite a realistic expectation at this point in time 🙂

At least not beyond the level that can already be done by mapping voice commands to key presses. The thing is, speech is a very complicated thing. There are usually several possible ways to interpret a specific combination of words, and conversely there's usually several ways to phrase a certain thought. We've just about reached the point where AI can more or less accurately "understand" what a person is saying. Translating that into more complicated actions than, let's say, "attack the nearest enemy" is on a whole other level. The AI would not only need to understand what the human is saying, but also what it itself is doing as well as the reasoning behind this all, and then draw conclusions about the final course of action to take. Perhaps it could be done with the financial/development power of Google or Microsoft or the like, but I don't think we're going to see anything of the sort from the current team 😉

[Sea Serpent]

If the AI can be programmed with discrete WWII carrier doctrine, it can be done. As far as voice commands go, maybe you should take a look at some 3rd party MSFS programs and see how they work.

[Lusekofte]

Ai in 46 was developed in a lot of years and gotten improved. It do not use same fm as player. Personally I think it would be perfect combined with good communication. AI as in GB take just as many resources as a human player and set number restrictions not suitable for most big air battles. Any form of complexity will reduce performance. 
Ai talk with code , pacific fighters age do not render it not modern. 
The code just have to fit the software. 
There are consequences for what we ask for. 
we want massive airbattles, and smart ai. It can not be done GB way. AI is a expencive and time consuming thing to get right. And I think we need to look at them as padawan’s 

or apprentices in the start. Jason first grey hairs appeared trying to sort ai 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Lusekofte

[ÆþelrædUnræd]

11 minutes ago, Sea Serpent said:

If the AI can be programmed with discrete WWII carrier doctrine, it can be done. As far as voice commands go, maybe you should take a look at some 3rd party MSFS programs and see how they work.

All due respect, but realistic AI and realistic  AI that responds in a meaningful and non-gameplay-breaking way to player-issued commands are an entirely different thing. Case in point: IL2.

Regarding voice commands, I'm quite up-to-date about what can be done with modern AI, especially Neural Nets, thank you. Following simple commands that can be translated to (sequences of) keypresses is perfectly possible, and has been for the past decade or so. But AI that actually "comprehends" what you're saying and can also act accordingly is, at this point in time, not possible for a small developer like this 🙂

Take it however you want; I'm not the one who's going to be disappointed when the game is released and none of this is present 😉

[Sea Serpent]

Like I said, carrier DOCTRINE.  At Midway, Dick Best recognized that the second (edit: maybe first, whatever) group was to attack the further carrier.  Mclusky or somebody screwed that up, but Best recognized it, and so he led his two wingman to attack Akagi.  One hit.  Kaboom.

I’m not talking neural nets and some kind of theoretical computer science.  I’m talking good old fashioned branched logic trees.

One of the revolutionary things about John Boyd and several others is that they understood air combat need not be some black art, but that decision trees could be formulated, documented, and trained. ( For examp, If my opponent is doing scissors, then here is a counter scissors maneuver. )

 

Quote

Take it however you want; I'm not the one who's going to be disappointed when the game is released and none of this is present 😉

If the intention is to recreate IL-2 1946, or IL-2 GB, with better graphics and a tropical setting and new planes, then don’t be disappointed  if a lot of potential customers aren’t present either.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Sea Serpent

[ÆþelrædUnræd]

6 hours ago, Sea Serpent said:

Like I said, carrier DOCTRINE.

If you're talking about a limited number of possible commands, then sure, that can be done as I already acknowledged, as this perfectly matches "simple commands that can be translated to (sequences of) keypresses". In that case, however, there are already some external tools that work rather well. I'd rather they have people use these tools and spend their development time/money elsewhere rather than hire someone to re-invent the wheel.

Of course, good integration with such external tools would be welcome.

6 hours ago, Sea Serpent said:

At Midway, Dick Best recognized that the second (edit: maybe first, whatever) group was to attack the further carrier.  Mclusky or somebody screwed that up, but Best recognized it, and so he led his two wingman to attack Akagi. One hit.  Kaboom.

This is actually a fine example of what *cannot* be accomplished by "good old fashioned branched logic trees". Splitting up your formation and changing your target according to a certain description ("further" "bigger" "on the left" "southern" or whatever) requires not just understanding the text itself, but also both situational and contextual awareness. AI of the likes of GPT would be able to do that, I expect, but that's way beyond the scope of a small development company like Skystreak.

And that right there is the problem: as long as you stick to a pre-defined list of commands that have pre-programmed actions linked to them, it's perfectly possible with branched logic trees. Anything beyond that, and you're going to need Neural Networks.

7 hours ago, Sea Serpent said:

If the intention is to recreate IL-2 1946, or IL-2 GB, with better graphics and a tropical setting and new planes, then don’t be disappointed  if a lot of potential customers aren’t present either.

I think that's exactly the intention, minus an improved flight model, AI and possibly some other stuff. And that doesn't disappoint me at all 🙂

[Lusekofte]

I do not think they will replicate il 2   But honestly that is the best ai to compare with. 
I think ai going to be rubbish at start. And you wish it had il 2 46 ai to deal with.  No one will abandon the game in the start because of the ai. It will take time to get that fed up 

 

[OriginalCustard]

Being a predominantly online player the only time I notice poor AI is from the AI gunners. I certainly hope that the AI in combat pilot will be a step up from the other sim. I also hope it  gives single players what they want too. As I understand it, modelling the AI for multiple gunners can put somewhat of a strain on things. Saying that, I'd much rather have a simplified gunner AI if heavy bombers could be introduced flyable or otherwise. I just hope we don't get into the situation where aircraft can literally line up behind you and the gunner fires everywhere accepted the aircraft on six.

Edits- it's one of the most frustrating things (for me anyway) 😀

Edited June 1, 2023 by OriginalCustard