Hughes H1 The best pre-WWII plane that the US Army rejected.

[PabloSniper]

Hello everyone!
I believe that other people also like this plane, but not everyone knows that it could have been a US Army fighter.

 

The Hughes H1 Racer was developed by business magnate Howard Hughes in 1935, while the American Air Force was still using the Grumman F2F biplane as its main fighter, which could barely reach 231 mph, while his H1 Racer reached 352 mph. The magnate insisted on selling this plane as a fighter to the American Air Force, and in an interview he said that there would be nothing faster than this plane in the next 2 years. And he was right, because neither the Curtiss P-36 nor the Grumman F4F could match its speed. Unfortunately, his plane was not adopted by the American Air Force, but the Japanese spies who were following everything closely disguised as journalists took all the information they could so that the legendary A6M Zero could be created.

 

[Sea Serpent]

1 hour ago, PabloSniper said:

 

….. but the Japanese spies who were following everything closely disguised as journalists took all the information they could so that the legendary A6M Zero could be created.

 

Hughes might have claimed that, but the designer of the Zero denied that.  I think Hughes’ claim is unsubstantiated.

[PabloSniper]

1 hour ago, Sea Serpent said:

Hughes might have claimed that, but the designer of the Zero denied that.  I think Hughes’ claim is unsubstantiated.

We must remember that these were years of great technological evolution in aviation.
It may not be an absolute truth, but it may have some percentage of truth.

[Robli]

Certainly the top aircraft designers also kept their eyes open about what was going on in the world and tried to learn their lessons from there, but honestly speaking the Zero looks more similar to Japanese own earlier prototypes like Mitsubishi's own Ki-18 (team where Hirokoshi was part of) than Hughes H-1 racer.

[Boba Fett]

The myths the Japanese didn’t/couldn’t design one of the greatest naval fighters in history is largely based on the belief of the times that they were inferior to their western counterparts in most, if not all, respects. It was as untrue then as it is now. It was a phenomenal homegrown design and their pilots were equally excellent. Both proved their mettle to the utter dismay of the Allies.

[PabloSniper]

On 9/16/2024 at 8:05 AM, Boba Fett said:

The myths the Japanese didn’t/couldn’t design one of the greatest naval fighters in history is largely based on the belief of the times that they were inferior to their western counterparts in most, if not all, respects. It was as untrue then as it is now. It was a phenomenal homegrown design and their pilots were equally excellent. Both proved their mettle to the utter dismay of the Allies.

Japan had ceased to be a feudal country a few years before World War II and its industry was young.
They clearly used spies to see what the West was producing.
And their industry was so limited that they were unable to produce an engine that would make their fighters reach the speed and altitude requirements in the requisition they made in 1944.

[Boba Fett]

My quote still stands. Every major military did, and does, use spies to determine their enemies' and potential enemies' states of readiness/technology. The Japanese had outstanding engineers and pilots. The Zero was a wholly indigenous design. Western claims to the contrary are based in nationalism and racism which were rampant in their pre-war military planning. The fact it used published engineering technology/concepts/data (NACA et al) of the times along with a different design philosophy (armor/weight/maneuverability/range) than those of the West has nothing to do with the OP. The H1 had no more in common with the Zero than it did with the Fw 190 or P-36. It was not accepted by the USAAC as it was a lightweight racer with no potential to expand as a pursuit or interceptor AC. Thin wings, long thin gear, extreme aft cockpit = great racer design, terrible fighter design. Hughes was a narcissist in the extreme and any claims by him beyond the generic layout that his aircraft led to the Zero fighter are ridiculous.

Wikipedia: "Aviation writer William Wraga asserts that the H-1 Racer inspired later radial engine fighters such as the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, the Mitsubishi A6M Zero and the Focke-Wulf Fw 190, without offering any arguments for that being the case"

And

 

"What Hughes actually asserted was that it seemed to him plain from examination of the two that the Zero was substantially a copy. An aside from Bill Utley, the Hughes company publicist, noted that one Al Ludwick had given details of pre-war inspection of the H-1 by Japanese generals at a New Jersey hangar. No actual evidence of copying beyond similarity of design is offered otherwise."

[BlitzPig_EL]

The Japanese had excellent designers, and some very good designs.  What they lacked was a mature manufacturing base and raw materials supply chain to pull off the kinds of mass production that the US did.  They were also hampered by an out of date doctrine, and a training regimen that flunked out a great number of pilots to crew positions that would have been aces in any western air force. Also, they suffered from a critical shortage of technical personnel to keep aircraft maintained.

[Boba Fett]

8 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The Japanese had excellent designers, and some very good designs.  What they lacked was a mature manufacturing base and raw materials supply chain to pull off the kinds of mass production that the US did.  They were also hampered by an out of date doctrine, and a training regimen that flunked out a great number of pilots to crew positions that would have been aces in any western air force. Also, they suffered from a critical shortage of technical personnel to keep aircraft maintained.

Absolutely agree

[PabloSniper]

5 hours ago, Boba Fett said:

My quote still stands. Every major military did, and does, use spies to determine their enemies' and potential enemies' states of readiness/technology. The Japanese had outstanding engineers and pilots. The Zero was a wholly indigenous design. Western claims to the contrary are based in nationalism and racism which were rampant in their pre-war military planning. The fact it used published engineering technology/concepts/data (NACA et al) of the times along with a different design philosophy (armor/weight/maneuverability/range) than those of the West has nothing to do with the OP. The H1 had no more in common with the Zero than it did with the Fw 190 or P-36. It was not accepted by the USAAC as it was a lightweight racer with no potential to expand as a pursuit or interceptor AC. Thin wings, long thin gear, extreme aft cockpit = great racer design, terrible fighter design. Hughes was a narcissist in the extreme and any claims by him beyond the generic layout that his aircraft led to the Zero fighter are ridiculous.

Wikipedia: "Aviation writer William Wraga asserts that the H-1 Racer inspired later radial engine fighters such as the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, the Mitsubishi A6M Zero and the Focke-Wulf Fw 190, without offering any arguments for that being the case"

And

 

"What Hughes actually asserted was that it seemed to him plain from examination of the two that the Zero was substantially a copy. An aside from Bill Utley, the Hughes company publicist, noted that one Al Ludwick had given details of pre-war inspection of the H-1 by Japanese generals at a New Jersey hangar. No actual evidence of copying beyond similarity of design is offered otherwise."

Well, let me explain.
I don't feel any nationalism towards an american project, because I'm brazilian.
And I also don't feel any kind of racism towards those japanese people, in fact I admire them a lot. Apart from the disarmament policy.
And as for the H1, I'm a fan of that plane.
I'm not an engineer, but I think that with a few adjustments it could have been a good fighter.
If I were in charge of the project, I would change the wooden wings for metal wings and install self-sealing tanks.
I would keep the same fuel tank, because it had a good range.
I would change the two-blade propeller for a three-blade one.
And I would install the same radial as the Wildcat FM-2 with 1200hp.
Maybe move the cockpit a little forward.
Whether he provided the basis for the Zero or Fw is not the most important thing.
What matters is that he had potential.

Edited yesterday at 01:30 AM by PabloSniper

[Robli]

Hughes H-1 Racer was definitely an interesting airplane, as a racer. Could it have had potential as a platform for military fighter? Maybe, maybe not. USAAF experts did not think that it was good enough for that and there is no real reason to say they were wrong, but of course there is no harm in imagining and debating, what it could have been.

 

Then come the "proof claims" of how the Japanese turned this racer into a capable fighter and how a "feudal country" like Japan could not have developed their own successful military plane or Wikipedia claims how the P-47 or Fw 190 were inspired by H-1 Racer, and such unfounded and kind of absurd claims really destroy the basis of any meaningful mind exercise or debate about whether this plane could have had potential as a fighter or not.

[Calos_01]

10 hours ago, PabloSniper said:

'm not an engineer, but I think that with a few adjustments it could have been a good fighter.

I don't think that's possible. It would be a completely different plane. Just notice for example two parameters - wing area (about 2/3 of contemporary fighters), wing loading (50% more than fighters that came soon). And H-1 was a light plane. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Saying you could turn the H1 into a fighter is on the same level as saying you could turn a modern Formula 1 car into a delivery van.

[PabloSniper]

6 hours ago, Robli said:

Hughes H-1 Racer was definitely an interesting airplane, as a racer. Could it have had potential as a platform for military fighter? Maybe, maybe not. USAAF experts did not think that it was good enough for that and there is no real reason to say they were wrong, but of course there is no harm in imagining and debating, what it could have been.

 

Then come the "proof claims" of how the Japanese turned this racer into a capable fighter and how a "feudal country" like Japan could not have developed their own successful military plane or Wikipedia claims how the P-47 or Fw 190 were inspired by H-1 Racer, and such unfounded and kind of absurd claims really destroy the basis of any meaningful mind exercise or debate about whether this plane could have had potential as a fighter or not.

What makes me think that this might have been a good option is the following analysis.
Go back to 1935...

You have a P-36 flying at 281 Mp/h

 

You have P-35 at 289 Mp/h

 

You have Hurricane at 315 Mp/h

 

And 109 at 292 Mp/h

 

 

In 1935 it was the fastest design, and was far ahead of its time.

 

[PabloSniper]

6 hours ago, Calos_01 said:

I don't think that's possible. It would be a completely different plane. Just notice for example two parameters - wing area (about 2/3 of contemporary fighters), wing loading (50% more than fighters that came soon). And H-1 was a light plane. 

This plane had two wings, a short one that was used in 1935 to break the speed record.
And a larger one, which was used in 1937 to cross the United States from coast to coast, with a capacity of 285 gallons of fuel. It had a radio and oxygen for the pilot.

 

[PabloSniper]

4 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Saying you could turn the H1 into a fighter is on the same level as saying you could turn a modern Formula 1 car into a delivery van.

This statement is not true and I will prove it with two photos.

This was a classic pilot trainer.

 

This is a fighter , and they are practically the same plane.
Developed by the same company, with the same wings.
Same landing gear.

When you have a goal and good will, anything is possible.

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 04:02 PM by PabloSniper

[BlitzPig_EL]

I stand by my statement.  The P64 was a complete dog.

[Boo]

2 hours ago, PabloSniper said:

What makes me think that this might have been a good option is the following analysis.
Go back to 1935...

You have a P-36 flying at 281 Mp/h

 

You have P-35 at 289 Mp/h

 

You have Hurricane at 315 Mp/h

 

And 109 at 292 Mp/h

 

 

In 1935 it was the fastest design, and was far ahead of its time.

 

By that measure the Supermarine S6B would have been the greatest fighter of WW2.  

 

[Calos_01]

1 hour ago, Boo said:

By that measure the Supermarine S6B would have been the greatest fighter of WW2.  

 

Don ´t forget Macchi M.C. 72, even faster plane😃

[Boba Fett]

Ok, gonna button this one up. It's slowly devolving towards a troll/flame event and the post has clearly run it's course. I only let it go this long to avoid any perceived conflict of interest as a fellow arguer.

 

Fett