Discussion of Developer Diary #09

[Ambaryerno]

24 minutes ago, CountZero said:

Same.

You need to have place where players can start , adjustable icons like in old IL-2, skies of valor or fire, or some similar servers had full icons for frendlys for enemy only some things would be displayed at certen distances.

When i started in online il-2 i didnt jump in on "full real" servers, i played on servers with icons and outside views and no cocpit views, aim assist, if i started online play and only option was cockpit and no icons i doubt i would play more then few days and call it quits. Now i play only on servers without icons but it took time to get there and enjoy playing like that online. There needs to be both options in game, GB lacks no cocpit view and adjustable icons, its either to arcade or to real, so arcade servers are empty and full real servers are to hard for new players, even players who played in SP for years would fined it extreme there, its turned now in only veterans playing with no new players realy having place to start and its imposible to grow like that.

Airstarts and artificial runways like we had in old IL-2 should be mandatory for PTO so mission makers can move action closer, ability to flaten some ground area and remove forrest on maps like solomons or new guinea and so on... so bases are closer. For Midway ok we have carriers so you just move them closer but for future maps if they are 1:1, options like that should be made posible.

From what i noticed big problem for new player online is SA, accuracy or flying airplane they usealy have, and knowing where action is, SP player usealy thinks if he dont get in DF in 10min in online servers its bad so they tend to just hd strait for closest enemy base, and its just brutal like that as they putt them self in positions where they are constantly outnumbered and at disadvantage... starting on servers with icons help that a little.

 

 

The thing most people don't realize about icons is that they compensate for the hardware limitations players have to deal with.

An aircraft that would be identifiable by silhouette in real life may only be rendered as a dot even on an 8k display because of the limits of pixel density and field of view. You're basically simulating a pilot who would have been so near-sighted he never would have been accepted for service in the first place. Properly implemented, icons correct for this by standing in for actual human visual acuity. It also helps to make up for the lack of depth perception when depicting a 3D object in a 2D image.

These things are BETTER with with 3D headsets, but there's still artificially limited draw distances and object scaling that unnaturally limit your visual range.

Edited August 15 by Ambaryerno

[Sea Serpent]

With battles like Midway, you have large groups of planes in the air for hours, and when they finally get there, the number of guys that actually hit something is low.  And of course, 3 of Hornet’s squadrons never found the target in the first place.  I’m curious how such a battle could work in an MP environment, because you probably aren’t going to have many people who wish to wait for a realistic strike to be spotted on deck, spend 2 hours flying somewhere, likely miss with their one 500 lb bomb, and then be in the air for another few hours to try to get back.  And if you’re a TBD pilot, you will realistically get whipped every time you go into action against the KB, and have nothing to show for it.  I can see grognards doing this a few times in SP, but I doubt there is much appetite for this on any kind of regular basis to daily populate a MP server.  It will be interesting to see how they address this situation but still retain the flavor of a realistic sim depicting carrier operations.

[A.E.Hartmann]

Excellent news. Thank you.

[MustangMike]

Love seeing surveys and detailed devlogs with lots of screenshots and info!! Much better than 40 minute slogs with unbearable AI voiceovers... 

 

Beautiful screenshots, and I filled out the survey! excited to see where this game takes engine modelling, as its definitely a weak point in most other games with piston aircraft.

[Props]

Well during my 20+ years of combat flight simming I for one have never used Icons, HUDs, technochats, etc. I have only flown WW2 sims (with the exception of MSFS and X-plane when I want to fly GA where I do not use Icons, etc. either) and those real pilots from those days did not have those options so why should I? 

From CRTs through to my 32" IPS 1440p monitor today, I do like they did. I see the dot in the distance, I approach trying to setup a good interception with advantage and ID the bogie when we get close enough. Sure there are limitations to the PC technologies we have to work with, but no icons give you a sense of the Fog of War.

In SP and less hardcore MP servers that's fine for new pilots and I have no problems with that. I just hope we get some full real hardcore servers from good folks that cater to all us old salts who prefer it difficult and as real as possible, from engine management to aircraft ID.

 

[Sea Serpent]

1 hour ago, MustangMike said:

Love seeing surveys and detailed devlogs with lots of screenshots and info!! Much better than 40 minute slogs with unbearable AI voiceovers... 

 

Beautiful screenshots, and I filled out the survey! excited to see where this game takes engine modelling, as its definitely a weak point in most other games with piston aircraft.

I think you might be on to something.  Most potential customers likely prefer a Developer Blog, rather than a Developer Slog.

[Ambaryerno]

15 minutes ago, Props said:

Well during my 20+ years of combat flight simming I for one have never used Icons, HUDs, technochats, etc. I have only flown WW2 sims (with the exception of MSFS and X-plane when I want to fly GA where I do not use Icons, etc. either) and those real pilots from those days did not have those options so why should I? 

From CRTs through to my 32" IPS 1440p monitor today, I do like they did. I see the dot in the distance, I approach trying to setup a good interception with advantage and ID the bogie when we get close enough. Sure there are limitations to the PC technologies we have to work with, but no icons give you a sense of the Fog of War.

In SP and less hardcore MP servers that's fine for new pilots and I have no problems with that. I just hope we get some full real hardcore servers from good folks that cater to all us old salts who prefer it difficult and as real as possible, from engine management to aircraft ID.

 

And I've been playing sims since Aces of the Pacific, so what's your point? Your post comes across as a weird flex, because unless you're simulating a pilot who would never have passed the eye exams to actually get his wings and someone manage to sneak through his physical, no icons to compensate for the hardware limitations at all is no more real  — and in fact actually ends up being more difficult than real life — than having them.

With the visual acuity even an average pilot would have, you could begin picking out identifying features of an aircraft around 6000 yards or so (exceptional individuals a bit further out. I believe Yeager could ID an aircraft from about 5+ miles). In EVERY sim I've ever played, that aircraft is still rendered as a little black smudge on the horizon at this distance. How is that real?

There's ways to handle it to prevent a giant neon sign taking the place of maintaining proper situational awareness. IE, you could have the icon only appear when the aircraft is within that identifiable range and after so long having the aircraft centered in your view, (to represent actually focusing on that dot to pick out those details) etc.

[Sea Serpent]

Actually IIRC, Yeager told a story in his book about being separated and seeing a plane at something like 30 or more miles.  I don’t have the book anymore, but I know he tells a tale of it.

Lets be clear, when talking icons, there is a big difference between a very difficult to see “dot” that is possible to be seen at 10 to 20 miles against the right background (to compensate for limitations of the virtual eyeball, and make it more realistic), versus some hud-like box in the sky with the text “Wildcat: Sea Serpent-15 km”

[Props]

This discussion is kind of a moot point. We all want to express our opinions about what we would like to see happen with this sim and that's normal. I am sure Jason and his team are going to provide plenty of options for all levels of experience, including things like icons, etc.

I apologize if I sounded like I was coming down hard on anyone who wants to see things like icons, technochats and such. That was unfair of me. Frankly those options will be up to the folks who decide to build any MP servers that will be available once the sim is ready and released to the public so I think everyone will get to play as they like. I guess I was speaking to the folks that might build those servers and that is obviously a long way off, so we'll see what shakes out when that time comes.

I think we all have to keep in mind that MP is actually a small niche within the flight sim world, inhabited by the more hardcore pilots like myself, and that SP is a much larger segment. Once again I am sure that there will be plenty of options available for all players and their particular level of experience and expectations.

And actually Yeager and a few others were known to ID from even greater distances than that and you're right we don't have that ability on modern PC equipment (as I noted above). I know some friends who can do it at 5 miles easily in VR, and I usually can't, but I get by all the same. The Unreal engine might provide some better spotting, we'll see. No need to get hot under the collar until we get this sim in our hands and try it out for ourselves. 

[Ambaryerno]

6 minutes ago, Sea Serpent said:

Actually IIRC, Yeager told a story in his book about being separated and seeing a plane at something like 30 or more miles.  I don’t have the book anymore, but I know he tells a tale of it.

Lets be clear, when talking icons, there is a big difference between a very difficult to see “dot” that is possible to be seen at 10 to 20 miles against the right background (to compensate for limitations of the virtual eyeball, and make it more realistic), versus some hud-like box in the sky with the text “Wildcat: Sea Serpent-15 km”

Who's saying to do that? By all means, aircraft shouldn't be instantly identified the second they pop on screen, and there should absolutely be a period between the range it first becomes visible, and when it gets identified. But if you could tell an F4F from a Zero at 3.5 miles IRL, it's no better realism to not provide any sort of feedback at all and leave it as a tiny little dot on a screen.

[Sea Serpent]

Maybe you didn’t understand, or I wasn’t clear enough.  Color Coded, Labelled Icons, at any distance, are for weenies, imo.  A one pixel black “dot” that is shown outside the range that an aircraft’s 3D model would be loaded in, and not highlighted in any way, is a different story.  I just wanted to clarify the difference between them.

[Props]

Whoa guys, we are off topic here as this Developers Diary was initially about engine failures and such. Maybe a new topic around spotting would be a more appropriate setting for this discussion.

[Ambaryerno]

3 hours ago, Sea Serpent said:

Maybe you didn’t understand, or I wasn’t clear enough.  Color Coded, Labelled Icons, at any distance, are for weenies, imo.  A one pixel black “dot” that is shown outside the range that an aircraft’s 3D model would be loaded in, and not highlighted in any way, is a different story.  I just wanted to clarify the difference between them.

Was I not clear enough for you?

A pilot could ID the differences between different aircraft types at a FAR greater range than even the best computer monitors can display. It's not being a "weenie" to want the game to account FOR WHAT THE HUMAN EYE IS CAPABLE OF BUT A COMPUTER SCREEN ISN'T.

You sure as hell don't need to be a **** by insinuating insults of anyone who disagrees with you.

[Sea Serpent]

2 hours ago, Ambaryerno said:

Was I not clear enough for you?

A pilot could ID the differences between different aircraft types at a FAR greater range than even the best computer monitors can display. It's not being a "weenie" to want the game to account FOR WHAT THE HUMAN EYE IS CAPABLE OF BUT A COMPUTER SCREEN ISN'T.

You sure as hell don't need to be a **** by insinuating insults of anyone who disagrees with you.

Its a fair bet they will provide options, and that there will be servers for the casual gamer types too, with big flashing labels, pilot name, distance, and aircraft model all right there for you, in such a way that even a Mole couldn’t miss it.  Insofar as Zoom is another way to make up for screen limitations, and is a standard feature in all flight sims, I don’t have much problem zooming in on a distant aircraft and making an ID at what I consider a realistic distance.

[Trooper117]

3 hours ago, Props said:

Well during my 20+ years of combat flight simming I for one have never used Icons

Same here mate 👍... and it had nothing to do about being hardcore or elitist, but simply I didn't like the idea of using them.

For me it spoilt the fun I was trying to have. It's just the way I liked to play the game. 

[Boba Fett]

OK gentlemen,

Make your points without personal attacks, questionable language, ALL CAPS, BOLD, etc. This is the only counseling you will receive before remedial action. Be the adult and/or take a break from the keyboard. The post where it went off the rails and all that followed have been hidden. This is a DD comment section. Tangents are fine but we have gone far astray of the topic and good manners. Now back to your regularly scheduled programing.

Fett

 

[kendo]

Looking absolutely beautiful - especially the in-flight shots. 👍

Edited August 15 by kendo

[Sea Serpent]

@Boba Fett I was once at some party in college, on a front lawn, and a cop, with an almost obscene mustache, drives up and gets out and says, “how are you folks doing tonight?”  Within about 30 seconds, I’m the only one standing there.  You seem to have that talent as well!😂😂😂

[Boba Fett]

Haven't had a moustache since the army but I have broken up more than my fair share of college parties.....

[Rick Rawlings]

Looking very good! I love seeing the modeling in its raw form...

A wise man once said that AI pilots don't have to follow the same rules as a player...they just have to seem like they do. I imagine the same thing holds for engine management: it doesn't have to exactly work the same way it does in real life, it just has to seem like it!

[Nickkyboy99]

Looks great, can't wait!

[Trooper117]

14 hours ago, Sea Serpent said:

a cop, with an almost obscene mustache, drives up and gets out and says, “how are you folks doing tonight?”  Within about 30 seconds, I’m the only one standing there.

That's because it was one of The Village People...  😬

[Dennis Nedry]

3. Engine overheat damage modelling, how do you notify to the player that he is suffering from an overheat? (besides gauges in the cockpit)
 

I answered that I prefer text on the screen but I would also like to propose an alternative.

Instead of text there would be a small red mercury gauge symbol.  To make it even more of a challenge it would appear on either the bottom left or right corner of the screen at random.

Edited August 16 by Dennis Nedry

[Catseye]

3 hours ago, Dennis Nedry said:

3. Engine overheat damage modelling, how do you notify to the player that he is suffering from an overheat? (besides gauges in the cockpit)
 

I answered that I prefer text on the screen but I would also like to propose an alternative.

Instead of text there would be a small red mercury gauge symbol.  To make it even more of a challenge it would appear on either the bottom left or right corner of the screen at random.

As long as it is an option only. 🙂  

[IckyAtlas]

Jason that's AWESOME. The sea rendering is perfect, as well as the textures for ships and planes (WIP I know). 

I hope that all the guns ground or on ships will be manned and not kind of robotic controlled. Regarding the waves I hope that there is some coordination between wind direction and waves. Interaction between ships and waves at different distance should scale proportionally so that we do not have these ships floating over waves visual effect. On the ships flags should flutter in the wind. I am sure that all this is now becoming the basics. It is just GB frustration at this point.

Jason, at this point the only vote that really counts is the one from the wallet: where should I send my 150 bucks (100 originally but we have to consider inflation) for even a very primitive EA?